off the cuff

My Issues with Fighting the Gay Fight


For the most part, I’ve remained silent on the issue of gay marriage and Prop 8 due to the rift I have seen it cause between Facebook friends, real friends and families who share differing views and opinions about the subject, most of whom aren’t even gay themselves.  I watched Chick-fil-A strive to maintain their business after it was determined that they, a Christian-owned company, financially supported organizations who opposed Prop 8.  What’s interesting is that we did not see the same fight against companies who were helping to fund the defense for George Zimmerman.  But, I digress.

These past two weeks, have seen the resurgence of the fight to legalize gay marriage, and although I remain indifferent, there are some aspects of this fight that annoy me, and which have compelled me to finally speak on this issue.

Opposition of gay marriage does not equal hate of homosexuals, no matter how you slice it.  This is not to say that some people who oppose Prop 8 don’t also hate homosexuals, but all people who oppose Prop 8 don’t hate homosexuals.  Most who oppose gay marriage do so because of their religious beliefs.  When your core values come in conflict with the law, the law will lose every time.  Therefore, just because my friend is Muslim and believes that men should be able to have multiple wives, and I believe in monogamy, doesn’t mean I hate polygamists. It just means I don’t believe in polygamy, and given that we both have the freedom to believe what we believe, he should not be held in contempt for his convictions and neither should I.

The argument for gay marriage is misplaced. Instead of trying to get people to wake up one day and believe that gay marriage, and thereby, homosexuality are ok (which is HIGHLY unlikely), why not attack the root of the problem, which is the fact that we are even allowed to VOTE on whether certain people can get married or not? That, to me, is the real issue.  If my God says that eating cheese is wrong, you’re NEVER going to change my mind about eating cheese.  Get over it and find another way to get the desired result because that’s not going to cut it.

Stop equating the gay issue with the plight of Blacks in America.  There have been no shortage of gay people on my TV, in film, at church, at school, at places of employment or anywhere else.  Our prisons are not filled with homosexuals (well maybe not until AFTER they’ve been in for a while) and gay people practically dominate the entertainment industry, which inadvertently puts them in a position of mass influence.  There are no straight-only water fountains or establishments and no one makes gay people sit at the back of the bus. MY fight, as a Black women, is BIGGER than the ability to call my connection with another human being marriage. MY fight can directly affect my financial status, my pride, and my future.  I cannot hide my blackness nor does it give me the upper hand in ANY situation or circumstance.  So, pardon me if I don’t change my profile picture on Facebook, write my Congressman, or engage in a battle of wits about whether Mike and Bob should be recognized as husband and husband.  There is still work to be done with regards to MY fight, and there has been for over 400 years.

Lastly, since many advocates are calling this a civil “rights” issue, why have proponents of gay marriage  failed to assert which actual ‘rights” they are being denied aside from being unable to marry in the legal sense of the word versus establishing a domestic partnership? This is information which might help myself and others make a more informed decision on the matter rather than an emotionally charged one.  The Civil Rights Movement was one in which we fought for “rights” – to vote, to be educated, to own property, to be free. We didn’t seek to change the meaning of equality or humanity, only to prove that we should be counted as one whole human being and thus, were entitled to be treated as such.

What is the difference, legally, between marriage and a domestic partnership?  What rights are in question?  What are your thoughts on the issue of gay marriage?  If the term marriage is redefined, where will the line be drawn in terms of who can get married and who can’t? 

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Discussion

27 thoughts on “My Issues with Fighting the Gay Fight

  1. “When your core values come in conflict with the law, the law will lose every time.”

    Well said.

    I too avoid all issues on gay marriage after being verbally attacked last year by several members of a sports forum I write articles and participate in sports-related discussions from time to time. I once insisted that current gay rights struggles and civil rights struggles of the 60s are not one in the same and your commentary pretty much hit the nail on the head. As you’ve stated, it is a civil rights issue but hardly THE civil rights issues that blacks endured for over 437 years and after-effects which are still present. So I cram to understand how anyone views differently.

    First off, I am a sinner, no different than the next man and woman BUT I promise I cannot fathom two men in an intimate relationship. I just can’t. At the same time, I love me some feminine gay women so yes I understand there to be a conflict within my conviction. I’m working on it though. Even then I don’t believe the two sistas in the film She Hate Me should be married. No, it doesn’t mean the two women shouldn’t have the right to love one another. They should. I simply view marriage in a sacred light.

    If asking, I honestly believe much of what transpires in today’s society to be indications that we’ve entered into the last days as described in the bible. I am most likely to oppose all things of discrimination in life, period, yet I hardly feel as if my opposing same-sex marriage is discriminatory as placed against my belief that man and woman ONLY are intended to be married in God’s eyes.

    GREAT POINT: In no ways are we stating that we hate homosexuals on a whole, we’re simply supporting our personal beliefs towards the subject at the end of the day.

    Posted by don | March 29, 2013, 11:44 PM
    • “I too avoid all issues on gay marriage after being verbally attacked last year by several members of a sports forum I write articles and participate in sports-related discussions from time to time.”

      As much as homosexuals call Christians hypocrites, this is the most hypocritical part of this issue – They say that we should all be free to believe the way we believe, love who we want to love, but those who believe that homosexuality is wrong or who oppose gay marriage are usually attacked for believing as they do.

      LOL at your struggle to reconcile your affinity for feminine lesbians with your disdain for male on male PDA.

      “If asking, I honestly believe much of what transpires in today’s society to be indications that we’ve entered into the last days as described in the bible. I am most likely to oppose all things of discrimination in life, period, yet I hardly feel as if my opposing same-sex marriage is discriminatory as placed against my belief that man and woman ONLY are intended to be married in God’s eyes”

      I too believe we have entered into the last days – the line between right and wrong has become blurred and nowadays, anything goes. Do whatever you makes you feel good, and this simply isn’t the way to live. I read Bossip from time to time, and they recently posted an article asking why celebs are pushing the gay agenda so hard…some suggested it was for population control, some had other theories. They were interesting nonetheless. Why do you think that is?

      Posted by 30thoughts | March 30, 2013, 12:41 AM
      • Why do I think celebs are pushing the gay agenda so hard? Hm. Maybe all the celebs are now gay? Zionists? The Illuminati? Well, I would say that nowadays America pretty much evolves around “celebrity” and celebrity influences, and anything embraced by Hollywood centers around the almighty dollar. Since money brings power, I’d say there is a good amount of truth where you stated how some insisted population control as one of the reasons. However, I believe that if Lucifer looked around and decided upon one final course of action that would go completely against God’s intended purpose for the Earth, is it safe to assume that attacking the Adam and Eve structure would be at the top of the list. What better way to wreak complete havoc upon morality and holiness (and future generations) than to seduce what is considered as an abomination?

        But here’s my thing – if we as human beings know the outcome of Sodom and Gomorrah, then why on Earth would anyone once again set the stage? Is it that the majority hardly believes in God or is there some truth where the bible stated how Lucifer was the ruler of the Earth as we currently know it?

        All of which reminds me of something my grandmother always said: “The end is a mofo.”

        Posted by don | April 1, 2013, 12:23 PM
      • “But here’s my thing – if we as human beings know the outcome of Sodom and Gomorrah, then why on Earth would anyone once again set the stage? Is it that the majority hardly believes in God or is there some truth where the bible stated how Lucifer was the ruler of the Earth as we currently know it?”

        ALL of this!! Did you hear about the new “gay-friendly” Bible that’s being printed? Smh…

        I do see how attacking the Adam and Eve structure would bring about population control, but I just didn’t know we were in such dire need of population control, except in China.

        I believe that a lot of celebs are gay to the extent that it doesn’t surprise me anymore when I hear about them and their shenanigans.

        Posted by 30thoughts | April 1, 2013, 8:27 PM
  2. I have mixed feelings about this. It bothers me to say it, since I consider myself to be rather liberal, but in my heart of hearts I don’t agree with gay marriage. It’s none of my business what people do in their bedrooms, but even taking the Bible out of it, from a purely biological & procreative standpoint we are built to be heterosexual beings. My concern really comes into play with the children- if we allow gay marriage, do we have to allow gay adoption too? And I don’t know where I stand on the issue of sexuality being a choice or not. I’ve always known I liked men but on the other hand, I wasn’t exposed to homosexuality to even think that being a lesbian was an option for me. Plus, your erogenous zones are not necessarily specific to opposite gender stimulation which kind of supports the theory that your sexuality is the behavior you choose to act on. But I digress.

    At this point, I think the best compromise is to let it be a state’s rights issue. Let the states decide if they want to allow gay marriage and if they do, the federal government (& the IRS!) have to recognize it. That doesn’t mean that individual churches can’t refuse to perform the religious part of it. There you go- separation of church and state. I’m straight, and a pastor can refuse to perform my ceremony for whatever reason so that’s not discrimination. I do share your offense with the comparison to the civil rights movement because race can’t be hidden. Nobody has to know you’re gay unless you tell them, and your coworkers aren’t entitled to know about your private life. Whereas I couldn’t hide my blackness even if I wanted to, as soon as you see me the game is up.

    Posted by Brownbelle | March 30, 2013, 1:09 AM
    • @Brownbelle Thank you for sharing and for being candid regarding your thoughts about gay marriage. It certainly isn’t the popular view right now, so I applaud anyone who is willing to stand up for their convictions.

      The ability to choose whether or not your gay does seem to play a large role in the debate. But, the right to choose whether or not you are gay aside, my thoughts on the issue stem from the principles upon which the country was founded (which are Christian) and the law attempts to set parameters based on these Christian principles, and ultimately protect us against ourselves.

      Also, the whole “I should love who I want to love” argument is flawed if we are to use it in reference to allowing gay marriage. The reason why is because the law doesn’t allow a 30 year old man to “love” or marry a 14 year old girl, nor does it allow us to marry our immediate family members. An argument that is sound should hold true no matter the circumstance, and this one simply does not.

      I loathe the civil rights movement comparison and I am advocating for it to end!!

      Also, homosexuals are already allowed to adopt. I touch on this is https://30thoughts.com/2013/03/04/single-mom-gay-dad/

      Do you or don’t you think it’s a choice?

      Posted by 30thoughts | March 30, 2013, 2:42 AM
      • Is sexuality a choice? I honestly have no clue. From my own experience, it’s not. As early as 4 or 5 years old, I thought some boys were cuter than others and knew I wanted to marry Indiana Jones, lol. However, many people (like my fiance, for example) didn’t think twice about the opposite sex until puberty.

        You have a really good point about our country being founded on Christian principles; unfortunately, the Constitution provides for separation of church and state and our “right” to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (even though that came from the Declaration of Independence & not an actual legal document). As a result, morals legislation has been struck down left and right for the past 100 years or so. But the scale tips both ways. Some people’s idea of Christianity does not provide for legal contraceptives or abortions (even in cases of rape, or danger to the mother). I can see how people think it’s better to err on the side of being too lenient with people’s rights than not.

        Posted by Lecie | March 30, 2013, 6:53 AM
      • “As a result, morals legislation has been struck down left and right for the past 100 years or so. But the scale tips both ways. Some people’s idea of Christianity does not provide for legal contraceptives or abortions (even in cases of rape, or danger to the mother). I can see how people think it’s better to err on the side of being too lenient with people’s rights than not.”

        This is very true. I can also understand the conflict between our country’s founding principles and personal freedoms. Here’s the thing, this is also very similar to the way God views us. He gives us all freedom of choice. There is a difference between right and wrong, and what that entails is CLEAR in the Bible, yet we still have the ability to choose God/Jesus/Allah, Buddha or whoever. This freedom of choice does not change what’s right and what’s wrong. This is why I stand firm in my decision to allow people to choose. I can’t condemn them, but if you ask me whether something is right or wrong, I’m going to tell you, so it’s best not to ask if you really don’t want to know.

        Posted by 30thoughts | April 2, 2013, 10:13 PM
      • Homosexuality is both biological and a choice. Some gay people are born gay and some choose to live that way. I know some people hate to hear that but I have known a few people (usually women) who chose just this and told me that they weren’t biologically gay. Some men in prison engaging in gay sex will tell you in a heartbeat that they are not gay.

        In my opinion, when marriages in general came to be defined as based solely on love it became like a house built on sand. Marriage as an institution became inherently unstable.

        Posted by Stephen | April 4, 2013, 10:18 PM
      • @Stephen “Homosexuality is both biological and a choice.” I somewhat agree with you. I think it is more so psychological than biological though. And there are some men/women who engage in homosexual activity for sport. While I don’t think some people choose to be gay, I don’t think they were “born that way,” but I’m no scientist.

        “In my opinion, when marriages in general came to be defined as based solely on love it became like a house built on sand. Marriage as an institution became inherently unstable.” I don’t think marriage has ever been solely based on love, and I don’t think that marriages solely based on love are automatically destined to fail. I think marriage, done right, is awesome. What do you think marriage SHOULD be based on?

        Posted by 30thoughts | April 4, 2013, 10:35 PM
      • I hope this comment comes through correctly. I had to reply to he original comment.

        I think you’ve reframed my point into something I wasn’t saying. I stated that I was speaking generally, not about any individual marriages. The always/never statements are almost always never true 🙂 so my point wasn’t geared that way. Specifically speaking, marriage was never totally based on love, there are always other reasons mixed in (financial, security, children, etc) but, since the sexual revolution, society has minimized the importance of those other reasons and the undefined (or multi-defined) “love” has bubbled to the top of the list as the main reason for marriage. Maybe not for you, me, or many religions but for enough people that the laws in the country are soon going to change because enough people are have adopted that mindset.

        To answer your question, I believe marriage should be mainly for the purpose of raising a family. Any other reason (imo) slowly changes within society into the odd forms of extended, contractual dating that we have today.

        Posted by Stephen | April 5, 2013, 12:10 AM
      • I see what you mean. I don’t think the importance of the reasons for marrying has been minimized, it’s just that now women are making their own money, so marrying someone for social status isn’t necessary anymore. We can look to marry someone we actually like/love and pursue true happiness. I’m not sure why laws would need to change to make accommodations for love-based marriages. I think love is a strong component of marriage but all those other things are important as well.

        I agree too that marriage is for the purpose of raising a family, but love should always be present even if the main purpose for marriage was to help facilitate the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.

        Posted by 30thoughts | April 5, 2013, 1:40 AM
      • “I don’t think the importance of the reasons for marrying has been minimized, it’s just that now women are making their own money, so marrying someone for social status isn’t necessary anymore” But isn’t that an example of a reason for marriage that has been minimized? 🙂

        Just so I tie this back to the original topic, my posts have a lot to do with the gay marriage issue now. As a believer, I feel that society has been butchering the institution of marriage for decades and, along with removing God out of government, that it’s become impossible to defend marriage, not only because of gay people, but because of the shambles that it was in before the gay marriage argument arrived. People slept for the past 50 years while marriage and its religious roots were systematically weakened but now want to fight for it. Do believers want to defend marriage or are they just against gay people? I truly cannot tell sometimes. Divorce has become so ridiculously easy, I can’t see how one defends marriage while not addressing the extremely high divorce rate, yet publicly most are quiet on that. Add to that the fact that some churches (Episcopal, some Methodist, UCC, etc) are performing gay marriages and people come to the conclusion that there is no firm religious ideal concerning it. Messages against gay marriages are varied and clear as mud but advocates for it have a stronger, more unified argument, especially emotionally, and it’s why they’ll probably win.

        Sorry to bring my religious feelings into the mix and I didn’t mean to offend. Have a good evening.

        Posted by Stephen | April 5, 2013, 2:25 AM
      • @Stephen You listed several things that you feel have been minimized with regard to marriage, but I feel there are still a lot of women who do marry for financial security and children. It’s just not the ONLY reason anymore, and I actually think that’s a good thing.

        I am also a Christian, and find it impossible to separate my beliefs with regard to topics like this, so please speak freely. I’ve always felt that it was very clear in the Bible that homosexuality was not looked upon favorably by God, but modern day churches have had difficulty dealing with this topic because many of them have political ties that keep them from standing firm on those beliefs.

        Marriage, although relationship based, is a contract. People aren’t listening to the vows they make and run at the first sign of trouble. That’s why I refuse to marry someone who is fickle or has a crappy work ethic. These people make bad business partners AND spouses. I appreciate your opinion on the high divorce rate. I blogged a bit ago about why I think the divorce rates are high. You may not like what I have to say though : )
        https://30thoughts.com/2013/01/16/are-men-to-blame-for-high-divorce-rates/

        Posted by 30thoughts | April 5, 2013, 3:18 AM
      • Not a problem. I was raised in a home where men were the enemy so I’ve probably heard far worse. 🙂 I mostly agree with the article and found none of it offensive.

        But back on the topic, my point about divorce was that few churches mobilized to help or even discuss the large rates of divorce that have taken place but they do for this. I feel that the churches, and American Christianity, weakened themselves in a way that has made them both ineffectual against the redefining of marriage that is now taking place and even against the redefinition of marriage going on within many churches.

        That’s all for now so I’ll get off of my soapbox. Great site.

        Posted by Stephen | April 5, 2013, 3:55 AM
      • Oh no! Men were the enemy?? lol
        What do you think the church can do to address the high divorce rates?
        Thanks for visiting. I do hope you visit again and again 🙂

        Posted by 30thoughts | April 5, 2013, 4:18 AM
      • “What do you think the church can do to address the high divorce rates?” I don’t think it can do anything now, it’s not influential enough to change policy. The only exception to that opinion is the Mormons in Utah. They are the only religious organization that I know of, with strong enough ties to the local/state government around them, that can influence its community, at least for now.

        I’ll definitely keep reading. Thanks.

        Posted by Stephen | April 5, 2013, 4:34 AM
  3. The whole gay rights movement is flawed. Not the freedom of choice to choose who you want to love but the approach. Basically as you said the movement wants to be treated equally in the right to love who they love etc but don’t want anyone to disagree. That’s not being equal at all and here lies my problem. If you call a homosexual a fag it’s derogatory but if it’s the other way around nothing happens. Not that any straight person finds offence in being straight but you do get the idea. As for gay marriage, I don’t like it because of my beliefs but if the law passes you won’t find me leading marches with torches. I won’t hate anyone for being gay but I’d be damned if they want to convict me for mine.

    Posted by petersburgh | March 30, 2013, 2:20 AM
  4. My take on it all is in my blog post entitled, “so you want to know what I think about same sex marriage, huh?” You can view it on my blog if you are interested. Thank you for sharing this today. Very concise, yet heartfelt all the same!
    http://ambirkelo.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/so-you-want-to-know-what-i-think-about-same-sex-marriage-huh/

    Posted by Annie B | March 30, 2013, 2:35 AM
  5. I couldn’t agree more with your position.

    I am a Christian and am certainly opposed to gay marriage. That being said, I have the same love/affinity for all humans regardless of their sexual orientation. Your statement “Opposition of gay marriage does not equal hate of homosexuals,” is one of extreme truth and evidence that there is “more than meets the eye” when it comes to this subject. This matter is spiritual more than it is physical, and the anger and hatred shown toward those who oppose the views taken by those in favor of gay marriage is certainly evidence of such. One of many examples can be seen when compared to the argument regarding the legalization of marijuana. I am opposed to legalizing marijuana and have been involved in or witnessed discussions between those of opposing stances regarding this matter, yet I have never seen (in my limited experience) the disagreements turn into ones filled with such anger and misplaced accusations as with disagreements pertaining to gay marriage.

    Your article and the comments above say all that needs to be said regarding the ridiculous attempts to compare “the gay issue with the plights of Blacks in America.” These absurd attempts go beyond the normal and typically successful attempts to marginalize all that Blacks in America have and continue to go through, and are strategically aimed at taking advantage of the majority of peoples’ (Black included) lack of knowledge, understanding, and wisdom regarding the past and current inequalities and injustices (you all mentioned several above) that Blacks in America face.

    There is so much that I can say about this but I will take it easy. 😉

    Posted by Mark | March 30, 2013, 11:42 AM
    • “This matter is spiritual more than it is physical.” I wholeheartedly agree. I think some Christians don’t even realize this.

      “I am opposed to legalizing marijuana and have been involved in or witnessed discussions between those of opposing stances regarding this matter, yet I have never seen (in my limited experience) the disagreements turn into ones filled with such anger and misplaced accusations as with disagreements pertaining to gay marriage.”

      I am certain this is because of the above quote you wrote, and because people are not really informed. They don’t really know what they’re fighting for, which is why I asked about what rights were actually being denied. One person finally responded and he was not gay. This leads me to believe that they don’t really understand why they’re fighting for the right to call their union a marriage as opposed to a domestic partnership.

      People are not usually swayed by emotions, especially with regard to matters like religion. They can only be swayed by FACTS, if that.

      No need to take it easy. You know I love a good discussion!

      Posted by 30thoughts | April 2, 2013, 10:06 PM
  6. Wow, you are so political! So why is the government regulating marriage in the first place? As long as they don’t hurt other people what business is it of theirs what people do with their lives? Why does the government get to be the arbiter of status in the first place? In the US, as I understand the history the only reason the government got interested was so they can pass anti-miscegenation laws. Before that it was a religious thing, there is no real reason for the government to know who is married to who. Only a few hundred years ago even churches did not do marriage. These were private matters.

    Eventually, the law will catch up, as the Supreme Court said in Lawrence v. Texas, there is an “emerging awareness that liberty gives substantial protection to adult persons in deciding how to conduct their private lives in matters pertaining to sex.” Maybe the government should just not care?

    Posted by Ahmed Shaikh (@shaikhlaw) | April 9, 2013, 10:28 AM
    • So why is the government regulating marriage in the first place?” Excellent question. It is no surprise that a nation supposedly founded on Christian principles would not enforce laws that go against those principles. I thought this must have a lot to do with it.

      I agree. They probably shouldn’t care.

      Posted by 30thoughts | April 9, 2013, 8:35 PM

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